Sandy Ezekiel once again addresses the issue of China Gateway in this weeks Gazette, in vague terms, he goes on about fiction being put out about China Gateway project.
Of course like everyone else who supports China Gateway, he seems, not particularly forthcoming with facts himself, particularly on the central issue for most in Thanet, jobs.
Suggestions that China is about to export manufacturing jobs seems to me to be ludicrous, I'm sure that for manufacturing business built on a solid foundation of poverty and slave wages, the thought of paying Europeans to produce at maybe 20 times plus is just crazy.
In short the jobs argument does not stack up.
Maybe if CGP or Sandy or Ladyman could point to one job to be created then they might get the public on side.
Maybe for balance if your not too sure on this issue, you might like to read what Roger Gale has had to say on the subject ( also as far as I know neither he or his constituency party have accepted £25,000 ) .
Its clear if there was the slightest evidence, or good jobs or any jobs the public would be supportive. I travel most days to London, if a living wage was available locally I'd be happy to reclaim 4 hours of my day.
Of course like everyone else who supports China Gateway, he seems, not particularly forthcoming with facts himself, particularly on the central issue for most in Thanet, jobs.
Suggestions that China is about to export manufacturing jobs seems to me to be ludicrous, I'm sure that for manufacturing business built on a solid foundation of poverty and slave wages, the thought of paying Europeans to produce at maybe 20 times plus is just crazy.
In short the jobs argument does not stack up.
Maybe if CGP or Sandy or Ladyman could point to one job to be created then they might get the public on side.
Maybe for balance if your not too sure on this issue, you might like to read what Roger Gale has had to say on the subject ( also as far as I know neither he or his constituency party have accepted £25,000 ) .
Its clear if there was the slightest evidence, or good jobs or any jobs the public would be supportive. I travel most days to London, if a living wage was available locally I'd be happy to reclaim 4 hours of my day.
I thought the article was very balanced and clearly shows what a sad bunch the "say No" lobby are. They have published blatant lies,it seems to be a sad fact that in Thanet there are those who dedicate their time to making Thanet a better place to live, to help those unemployed get work and give them their self respect back and then there are those who are anti anything going, very sad people.CGP have clearly stated and actually know the number of top tier jobs that will be created a little over 600 in Phase one and lowers skilled workers in Phase 1 totally a further one thousand jobs. Not to mention the indirect jobs in establishing the Business Park
ReplyDeleteI suggest that the anti brigade get off their backsides and go and talk to the 17% of the eligible workforce who so desperately want a job, and remove Thanet from top odf the table for people on Job seekers allowances.
Get real the anti lobby in you cant be bothered to get the fact then dont print rubbish, you do adiservice to the population who are demoralised enough by this economic meltdown given to us by the Labour Party.
I don't believe it! Someone talking about China Gateway without scaremongering. Well done.
ReplyDeleteThe development will happen, because it needs to, it will not poison us all just because a bookseller says it will, and locals will work there. I suppose this is another (pre) Westwood Cross story. That's happened, the world still revolves and in 6 months time the blogs will be full of some other tornado in a teacup. Great fun but entertaining rather than informative.
Well, anonymous, you might like to consider that the so-called top tier of jobs was a figure reached by the consultants to CGP asking the only firm so far to state they are coming, Aigo, and asking how they would structure the company here. This figure was then multiplied by 18, the number of units that might be on site. Don't forget there will be some that have to be taken out of the equation due to the safety zone round the fireworks factory so there won't be 18 after all in phase 1 . There will be some smaller units, an amenity building and five large warehouse distribution centres. How many of those top tier jobs will be offered to locals? As many as being offered by Thanet Earth? Locals who are looking for work at Thanet Earth can e-mail jobs@thanetearth.com and ask for information on what is available or likely to be available. Someone I know did that and is still awaiting even an acknowledgement.
ReplyDeleteI really can’t understand what Roger is saying here, the developer has made no effort to produce any solution to the main technical problem with this development, which is the runoff from the car and lorry parks. Nor does there appear to be any solution that is any sense viable, to approve plans that are not in any sense for something that can actually be built is bound to leave us with another Thanet disaster like that caused when unbuildable plans for the Pleasurama site were approved.
ReplyDeleteYears of delay while the architect keeps submitting plans that don’t conform to the sites environmental and safety restrictions, presumably in the hope that the planning department will eventually allow an inferior development to one that would be allowed anywhere else.
Who really thinks that the Chinese are going to want a delayed badly designed development, where basic environmental considerations are irresolvable due to the cramped layout, to showcase their goods.
The council have three options and I think the best is to defer the decision until such time as good plans have been produced, however the inference that the planning inspector would ignore the statutory consultees and for instance allow unacceptable levels of pollution and override the discharge consents is total nonsense.
All we are asking is what jobs!
ReplyDeleteEzekiel and Latchford ontificate because they've sold their souls to CGP.
In fact Ezekiel says the Chinese coming to Manston. Surely it should be 'if' the Chinese come to Manston!
I would have thought that with a Police enquiry into dodgy dealings, and Stock Market enquires about CGP's dubious boasts, ongoing; then our leaders would want to face us with some facts just for a change!
I think you missed a point here Tony.
ReplyDeleteAs 03.06 and 04.07 are obviously Council employees and disagree with you, then just take down their entries!
There is a precident as Ken Gregory is taking down anything that disagrees with his viewpoint over on Village Voice!
It keeps in with his one sided view of democracy I suppose in continuing to suppress anything against his mate's projects.
I happen to believe in free speech I wont be taking any thing down unless it offends.
ReplyDeleteI would point out that supporters of CGP seem to have been motivated into promoting China Gateway rather belatedly, maybe someone has realised that splashing cash about just goes so far?
If there was any serious chance of this creating proper jobs it would have my full support. If does create any employment it will probably be aimed at east europeans.
Again could one of the supporters point to the mythical chinese manufacturer who will be producing products here? Perhaps if sandy does not know maybe ken whatsit could tell us?
One things for sure they wont be manufacturing cars, air craft parts, anything electronic, furniture, toys, anything pottery, Knives and forks, clothes, need I go on .... What do we make ecomically in this country?
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who is very suspicious of the orchestrated and almost hysterical criticism of those who dare to suggest that China Gateway and the so called stand alone application is flawed and unsound in environmental terms, planning density and layout and it's extravagant claims to solve the un-employed problem in Thanet?
ReplyDeleteWe have had and still have 2,000 to 2,500 on job seekers allowance and this disinformation about 17% of the eligible workforce is nonsense.
The orchestrated 'pro lobby' is beginning to smack of paid PR consultants being employed to flood the local blogs and media with letters and postings. One of the themes is to hurl abuse rather than address the issues. I find the anti-lobby seem remarkably well informed and factual and clearly have spent a great deal of time on research into this issue. It is a pity that the pro-lobby are restricted to villification and ignorant and odd interpretation of statistics. They clearly lack the intelligence to mount an organised pro-campaign and are perhaps not a professional PR team after all but some Senior Councillors and Officers at TDC?
Actually, to be fair, it is by definition a bit of a one sided debate. Everyone demands facts, which are often suppositions because of the nature of any new development, and then, of course, the nature of the suppositions is attacked.
ReplyDeleteAny Councillor commenting at all in their own name risks being accused of having already decided.
I suspect if there had been a decently orchestrated PR campaign the debate may be rather different. And there is a tendancy amongst the bloggerrati (is that a word?) to believe other bloggers above all else. Yet, there are to my certain knowledge several constantly repeated accusations, particularly about visits to China, which are wholly untrue.
It's a lovely row, and bloggers love a row and a conspiracy theory above all else. it is their very lifeblood.
In the end, Cllrs face making a decision, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, and ensure all feel they have had a fair hearing. I can tell you that is a far from easy or comfortable position to be in. I do not say that for sympathy, if you are not prepared to face such moments then you should not stand for election.
Rather it is the (seemingly) impossible task of being percieved to have listened honestly to all, and being respected for trying to make the best decision you can from it all. That is certainly not simple with this decision.
The reaction to my first post (anon 04.07) proves my point. I have been called 'pro-China Gateway', 'a TDC employee', and 'a PR consultant'. None are true, but the accusations are levelled simply because I am not 'anti'. Can't I just be an interested onlooker who enjoys reading blogs but has independent thoughts?
ReplyDeleteMy initial point, picked up later by Chris Wells, is that the story on the blogs thrives on rumour and innuendo: entertaining but not necessarily factual. As there's no checking the validity of blog entries therefore every posting is given the same weight but as some people have their own agendas, some are just mistaken, some are lying, and some are correct they aren't all the same.
Blogs give us another form of expression but they won't change the world, they won't change Thanet and they won't affect the decision on China Gateway. Well rerasoned and sober argument will though.
Chris, I do appreciate you commenting and not anonymously, I do appreciate how difficult it is to sort the fact from the fiction on this one.
ReplyDeleteThe council does have Doug Brown the planning officer in charge of the case, who is an expert in planning matters and I would recommend that you ask him if he can see any solution to the surface drainage problems click here to read my recent correspondence with him.
I would be reasonably happy with the water safety issue if someone was to produce some viable scheme for drainage, just an outline idea would do.
The water from the lorry park on the most sensitive part of the source protection zone has to go somewhere, yet the developer doesn’t own any land lower than this lorry park.
Between them the environment agency and southern water have said it can’t go into underground storage tanks and I can’t go directly from the interceptors into soakaways or Pegwell bay.
This means it has to go into open ponds somewhere and then on from them and this had to happen by gravity flow, pumping isn’t an option as a power cut in a rainstorm could permanently damage our essential drinking water supply.
I do wonder why people would want to comment anonymously on this issue, the only reason I can think of is that they are councillors who have already made up their minds as to how they will vote at the council meeting.
Michael, I am anon 04.07 and 10.19. On the issue of posting anonymously I think I do it because I can. Let me explain, I'm not a councillor and never have or will hold public office and that's probably because - although I have opinions - I shy away from 'arguing' them.
ReplyDeleteBlogs, and the anonymity they offer, allow me to make what I hold to be valid points without any rancour able to go beyond the medium. No-one gets in my face in a pub (or at the Winter Gardens! Sorry). In many ways it is because of people like me, anonymous posters, that blogging will remain a sub-culture and can never affect any real change on its own account because it is so easily corrupted by people using my nom de plume, but for different reasons. (My previous post refers.)
Without intending to patronise I admire your bravery to use your own name, especially as you are a local businessman and people who object to your opinions may vote with their feet / pound etc.
I however can remain free and un-pigeonholed: I like Dave Green but not Chris Wells yet I'm not a labour supporter; I like Westwood Cross but hate the congestion but know the jams will be dealt with in due course; I dislike the eleven plus and applaud comprehensive education but don't think 'elitism' is a dirty word. Anonymity allows me to display my shades of grey.
11.29 etc it would be helpful if you could at least adopt a nom de plume for continuities sake. In terms of being for or against China gateway I have mixed feelings, or to rephrase that if it came forward without the environmental and road infrastructure problems, my main concern would be basing so much of our local economy’s future in one pot controlled by a single foreign country.
ReplyDeleteThis has already happened with Pfizers where manufacturing has stopped at the local plant and a lot of the space there is now unused.
What really concerns me here though, is that I have put forward to the appropriate people TDC planning the EA etc serious concerns about the viability of the project, now no one anonymous or otherwise has done anything to refute my concerns or counter them.
I don’t think it is particularly important here whether you are for or against the project in principle, the problem here is that the same architects who came up with bad plans for Pleasurama appear now to have come up with bad plans for China gateway.
The bad plans for Pleasurama have cost Ramsgate dearly and bad plans for China Gateway are likely to cost Thanet dearly.
As far as my expressing my views under my own identity goes, I don’t think people would have given me much credence over the various issues I have commented on had I not, I think you will find I have a good track record for researching things properly and unfortunately in many cases mostly being right.
As far as this effecting business goes, the reading public in the South east who buy books on the subjects I specialise in are fast running out of options sadly, but the day my customers have to agree with my views and stop chatting about local issues and history is the day I give up and go.
I am fascinated by Chris Wells comment,"Yet, there are to my certain knowledge several constantly repeated accusations, particularly about visits to China, which are wholly untrue."
ReplyDeleteFor him to state that they are wholly untrue, means that he knows the truth!!
So will he answer the following points, and so put the rumours to bed once and for all;
1. There is / is not a police investigation into the dealings between senior TDC persons, and CGP?
2. How many jobs Chinagateway will create for Thanet?
3. Why there is an investigation by the stock market into CGP and Ken 'Nigeria' Wills?
4. Confirm or deny that Wills or company not only gave £25000 to South Thanet Labour (fact) but also offered £12500 each to Thanet North and South Tories? And wether or not it was accepted?
As Chris Wells knows the whole truth, perhaps he will now share it and end these rumours?
Michael, my nom de plume shall be 'Jack'.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of your questions except that I might draw a slightly different conclusion from them. My starting point is that if answers aren't forthcoming at the moment it's either because they don't want to tell you, or they are working on it. Either way I believe that no decision will be taken that endangers our health. I'm not naive, I just believe a lot more in cock-up than conspiracy and there aren't as many cock-ups as rumour would have us believe.
I spoke to someone last week who is close to the developers and he was wholly unaware that there was a conversation about this matter on the blogs and was sure the development would go through because it made good economic sense for everyone. If they were asked to build an all-singing all-dancing drainage system then they'd do so. Contrary to some things I've read in the blogs these are well capitalised and experienced developers who will make the plan work.
If there is a problem with drainage as you say, and I don't doubt your word, then it'll be fixed and we'll move back to worrying about Pleasurama - until that's built. And so on.
You see it's not your argument , or anyone else's, that I've got a problem with, it's the febrile atmosphere in which they're stated that may lead some people to take them as fact.
PS - I took Jack because in Brewer's there are so many alter egos that it goes with I could be someone else every day! Jack-a-napes, Jack of Dover, Jack the Giant Killer etc
Jack I am a great believer in the cock up theory, however unless you can show me something that the developer has actually developed I am inclined to reserve judgment on their competence. However as far as the architects are concerned have a look at the way they tried to resolve a technical issue by clicking here and then tell me what you think.
ReplyDeleteThe problem they face with China Gateway is the fundamental law of nature, gravity I shall look with interest at their attempts to make water run up hill, frankly if it hadn’t been the same architect as the one used for Pleasurama I wouldn’t have been so careful in my examination of the plans.
All singing all dancing drainage is what southern water are insisting on, in fact the same standards set for all of the other industrial developments there, however they resolve this by having balancing ponds down hill from their hard standing, all that is down hill from this hard standing though is our drinking water well.
Jack, go and look at CGP's set up by googling CGP; look at their Aim Flotation; look at their Annual Report. This company, as a company has fixed assets of £9,000; no previous experience in development and no track record with two people only holding 66% of the shares (Wills and Prosser). It has/had one full time employee; a loan of £28.5 million from Israel Discount Bank to be paid back in Nov 2009 at Libor + 2%. They have a commitment to pay David Hai, their link man with Chinamex a huge consultancy/agent's fee; are paying interest on their IDB Loan from the loan itself and have amazingly 'speculatively'purchased farmland around MIBP for phases 2 and 3 that was then 'revalued'by over 100% by Savills in 2007 based on planning consent being given. (We are talking here about agricultural land outside the Local Plan!).By the way,take an interest in Eurokent and Cabinet Meeting of 18 Sep to see how Mr Fitt eloquently argued the case for more development land in Thanet and to all intents and purposes may as well have said CGP's Land for Phases 2 and 3.
ReplyDeleteIf they pull this very clever stunt off with the compliance of TDC's Cabinet and executive, they will clear £40,000,000 alone on the sale of their Phase 1 holdings to Chinamex or others and disappear into the sunset. Who will TDC and Doug Brown be talking to about training, jobs, transport plans and drainage in a year's time. I doubt it will be CGP!!
CGP is a speculative property company using other people's money (IDB in this case) to pull off a planning consent and nothing else. Go and read what CGP says about Prosser and his speciality.
Jack , your description of CGP doesn't hold water I am afraid.
Bertie,
ReplyDeleteAs I've said I hold no candle for the development either way and I've no reason to doubt your figures. My point is that in the 'real' world the development will go ahead (to the delight of some and the amazement of others) and in the blogging world a million words will have been written to no avail.
Time of course will tell, and there may be many fences yet to be jumped, but in six months' time we'll be exercised about the building materials / road chaos / spoilt views it is causing and then six months after that it'll be something else altogether. There's a lot of mileage in this subject because of its phasing but bloging will have not the slightest effect on its outcome.
Having said that, if it wasn't for blogs I'd probably never have heard of the issue, the papers are still yet to get really excited about it, so I'm grateful for the info, right or wrong.
Rick has posted, on Thanet online, about the TDC response confirming a solvent spillage report at Sericol in the 90s.
ReplyDeleteMichael's blog linky
The chemical which threatened water table was cyclohexanone (google it up for its range of hazards)
Rick has authorized TDC to forward the FOI request to Environment Agency. To try to quantify how much was calculated to have gone into chalk layers and how much may have been stolen. (The suspicion presumably being that the storage was left leaking in the process of thefts)
I am afraid it is a big well done to Irritating Bloke on this one which vindicates Michael's concerns about CGP.
Well 27 Sep 02,20:00 another smart bit of infactual gossip why mr Ian Day did you bother to go anonymous when you have sent tha same rubbish to so many Cllrs
ReplyDeleteIs 5.22 one of our TDC Councillors? I hope not, as incoherence seems to rule; what does infactual mean?
ReplyDeleteIf you are referring to Sat 2.20 posting, I am not surprised that a citizen in Thanet is e-mailing Councillors about this. Presumably, you have received an e-mail too? I received the same posting at about the same time as Tony but declined to post it as I believe such matters should be left in the hands of relevant authorities to investigate.
Dear 05.22, not a piece of contrived rubbish, just a concise selection of internet rumours put too a Councillor who is stating that he knows the truth!!
ReplyDeleteWhy are you afraid of the truth!
Is it that the rumours have some substance and that the the Tory leadership is running out of smnoke and mirrors to deceive the public?
It is interesting to see Bertie posting here, when he blocks posts from those that he disagrees with on his own blog.
ReplyDeleteHowever, he is wise enough to let the odd view through to give the impression that he believes in free speech, and uses other reasons as well.
But in reality Bertie Biggles only wants to promote his only ANTI AGENDA.
The term double standards come to mind.
I am sure that he will now do what he does best, and insult our intelligence but answering back with his usual RUBBISH.
All I can say is, thank goodness, BIGNEWS allows REAL free speech.
Kim
Dear 05.22,I've just read your little note regarding my sending of e.mails to Councillors.
ReplyDeleteYes I did send much the same as the posting here, as it is a concise list of rumours that I was hoping someone would answer.
As I identified myself only to the Councillors, I must assume that you are, or represent a Councillor.
From your posting, I can only hope that you have nothing to do with education!
Ian Day
The more you call reasoned argument and quoting from documents in the public domain, rubbish, "Kim" of 4.13, the more you make people wonder what TDC's Cabinet and Senior Officers don't want the public to know, or for the record, its own Councillors. It is extraordinary how many Councillors are kept in the dark by this autocratic leadership of TDC and thus misled. Not telling people the whole facts but feeding them only what you want them to know is the hallmark of repressive and undemocratic regimes.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that posts such as yours only occur during working hours and seem to emanate from Cecil Square.(That of course is speculation as I cannot prove it.)
You might notice that when I do not publish a posting, I apologise to the author and reply if I can. In the past week only 2 posts have been sent to the 'ether'.
Please carry on the derision and 'rubbishing' as it strengthens my arguments no end. Go and look at the facts and argue against the points put by me in polite disputation and you will have more credibility. Or is that you cannot dispute the argument?
Growing up it all seems so one-sided
ReplyDeleteOpinions all provided
The future pre-decided
Detached and subdivided
In the mass production zone
Bertie you are a very dangerous person. The sad thing is it would be the young people that would suffer, while you would just move on to objecting something else. Shame on you
ReplyDeleteShame on you
PW
Boring! 10.43. Got a gripe with Biggles? Go and do it on Thanetstrife. Losing the thread here, Tony.
ReplyDeleteDear 10.43 your right Bertie is dangerous! Anyone who has the truth is dangerous as he blows idiiots like you out of the water!
ReplyDeleteYoung people will suffer more being dictated to by a bunch of self serving, money grabbing leeches such as those trying to impose China Gateway on us!
Good for Thanet? No, good for the pockets of a few developers and their TDC friends!
What are the facts indeed?
ReplyDeleteI ask a councillor for his opinion on certain subjects and he makes a reply!
Six hours later, he makes a total about face and says something totally different!
What can happen between 00.30 hrs and 06.30 hrs to cause such a change in heart I wonder?
Ian Day
Ian Day, as I'm sure there is more than one person with your name in Thanet could I just check (before I get in touch directly) that you are, hmmm, the bus man?
ReplyDeleteAnd you are, hmmmm Jack the Council man?
ReplyDeleteThis Jack isn't from the council but I am sure they have many of their own. I worked with an Ian Day some time ago and wondered if he was the blogger in question. But as I don't want to give too much away about his identity to the extremists among bloggers (remember OVIT and Thanet Life?) I cryptically gave him the 'bus' clue.
ReplyDeleteAh OVIT! I wonder what became of him...?
ReplyDelete